tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9192597712746432631.post8115090823543549453..comments2024-03-09T09:06:35.288+00:00Comments on Notes from Two Scientific Psychologists: Brains learn to perceive, not predict, the worldAndrewhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16732977871048876430noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9192597712746432631.post-45579257205560496592022-02-13T17:19:19.261+00:002022-02-13T17:19:19.261+00:00Perceptual Control Theory (PCT) provides a model a...Perceptual Control Theory (PCT) provides a model and understanding of neural processes based on perception rather than prediction that explains how we function and survive in our changing environment.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12384420414616445745noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9192597712746432631.post-3954771657754310012019-10-10T13:01:52.099+01:002019-10-10T13:01:52.099+01:00I try to explain prospective control here.
And no...I try to explain prospective control <a href="http://psychsciencenotes.blogspot.com/2011/10/prospective-control-i-outfielder.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>.<br /><br />And no, time-to-contact is not being generated via a comparison. The optical variable itself simply IS time-to-contact.Andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16732977871048876430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9192597712746432631.post-67395839941589147392019-10-09T16:13:57.238+01:002019-10-09T16:13:57.238+01:00"The best way to think about this is to know ..."The best way to think about this is to know that if you could 'read off' the state of the baby, nothing in there would correspond to the future event. It would all be about the currently available information. So the system doesn't know about the future in any way, it's just interacting now with information that happens to help."<br /><br />So you don't think the time-to-impact "data" is being generated by a comparison with previous "states" and has any implication for how "future states" are generated? <br /><br />I guess I'm having trouble understanding how prospective control doesn't "incorporate" predictive control. I can see how they are different based on a few abstracts I've been poking around through but I still fail to see how the former doesn't include the latter in some way.<br /><br />Any good essays on that?<br /><br />I'm a really excited layman who has just discovered this REC stuff and am trying to get to a place where I can explain this to my friends. dudhdudhdudhhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13512341737807947391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9192597712746432631.post-74400401891618958542019-10-09T11:19:20.100+01:002019-10-09T11:19:20.100+01:00No - it's currently available information that...No - it's currently available information that just so happens to allow you to coordinate your actions with respect to a future event. This is prospective control. <br /><br />The best way to think about this is to know that if you could 'read off' the state of the baby, nothing in there would correspond to the future event. It would all be about the currently available information. So the system doesn't know about the future in any way, it's just interacting now with information that happens to help. Andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16732977871048876430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9192597712746432631.post-59951791551382631682019-08-25T15:02:23.485+01:002019-08-25T15:02:23.485+01:00"The data show that the infant brains were no..."The data show that the infant brains were not learning to predict the world. Instead, neural activity became more tightly coupled to information about the time-to-collision. We learn to perceive, not predict, the world."<br /><br />I'm trying and failing to understand how information about time-to-collision isn't a prediction about the world. Isn't it a prediction? dudhdudhdudhhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13512341737807947391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9192597712746432631.post-31139659153449413962018-06-18T11:45:37.146+01:002018-06-18T11:45:37.146+01:00Excellent post. It is certainly important to under...Excellent post. It is certainly important to understand the role an infants brain plays in assimilating information. And I agree, we can't treat brains as predictive machines. Although the brain simulates and predicts, these aspects aren't devoid of perception. As you've rightly pointed out the ball doesn't just create the information for 'time to collision'. <br /><br />I am particularly interested in the determinants of learning. And variation in stimuli gets highlighted so often. Without that variation, it would be harder for the brain to learn and predict in the first place. This variation in stimuli is largely about perception. Aditya Shuklahttps://coolpsychologicalinsights.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9192597712746432631.post-50579166145775599602016-05-10T14:59:06.322+01:002016-05-10T14:59:06.322+01:00Thanks! I'll read this later :)Thanks! I'll read this later :)Andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16732977871048876430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9192597712746432631.post-91235326759707569992016-04-28T22:18:06.689+01:002016-04-28T22:18:06.689+01:00I just wanted to point out that there are radical ...I just wanted to point out that there are radical embodied/ecological people who think that the theory of predictive coding/active inference can be made consistent with the central tenets of ecological psychology. Andy Clark is aware of this work and engages with it here, see especially his comments following the main blog-post: http://philosophyofbrains.com/2015/12/15/conservative-versus-radical-predictive-processing.aspx#more-4713Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00835109913586117879noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9192597712746432631.post-70510803306542542662016-04-27T09:35:36.672+01:002016-04-27T09:35:36.672+01:00Yeah, I watched that; it's a good representati...Yeah, I watched that; it's a good representation of his views (no pun intended :)Andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16732977871048876430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9192597712746432631.post-42535772835186837772016-04-27T01:25:53.301+01:002016-04-27T01:25:53.301+01:00What looks like a summary of the book in question:...What looks like a summary of the book in question: Andy Clark on "Predicting Peace: An end to the representation wars?" <br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6EawXopUC4Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04369264537906109842noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9192597712746432631.post-70869427944393297242016-04-26T14:00:18.584+01:002016-04-26T14:00:18.584+01:00Thanks for your reply, that makes sense.
As of un...Thanks for your reply, that makes sense.<br /><br />As of understanding of Gibson's work, there's an interesting work from Stephen E. Robbins, an author who in my view understands Gibson and his implications thoroughly and ventures to extend them to quite challenging and non-mainstream conceptions (for example: http://www.stephenerobbins.com/uploads/7/3/2/9/73295531/nova-direct_memory.pdf)<br /><br />I'd be really curious on your view on his work...Jacqhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03935534887085887609noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9192597712746432631.post-25947645263998885862016-04-26T10:11:23.810+01:002016-04-26T10:11:23.810+01:00I haven't read Surfing Uncertainty yet. But I&...I haven't read Surfing Uncertainty yet. But I've been reading and listening to Clark for years, and I know what he thinks the ecological/embodied approach should be like. He doesn't really get Gibson, or rather, he doesn't use the ecological stuff appropriately in his theories. <br /><br />In essence, while Clark uses many of the same terms, I simply disagree with how he uses them; I think he is incorrect. Using the same words is only part of saying the same things!<br /><br />My read on Clark's work is that he has not fully come to terms with the implications of Gibson. Not because he's dumb, he just disagrees with a bunch of it. But because he hasn't gone all the way, I find his use of the bits he does like to be weak and poorly constrained. His overall approach is strongly rooted in these predictive, generative models, and my stance here is that these things solve a problem that doesn't exist.Andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16732977871048876430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9192597712746432631.post-78619851057144168832016-04-26T01:11:32.700+01:002016-04-26T01:11:32.700+01:00I have a similar sense and at the same time hope t...I have a similar sense and at the same time hope that I'm wrong, as I wouldn't want to lose my trust in the rigor and honesty I have attributed to the writings here. I am curious about Andrew's reply.Jacqhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03935534887085887609noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9192597712746432631.post-18791574745893953132016-04-25T02:08:20.269+01:002016-04-25T02:08:20.269+01:00If predictive models were indeed a viable means fo...If predictive models were indeed a viable means for surviving, then why do predators frequently fail to catch their prey? They are constrained by their senses to the same information that humans are. However, we have a better cognitive means for association and can apply our memories to broader contexts and make inferences. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9192597712746432631.post-61306631849985442382016-04-22T03:00:27.193+01:002016-04-22T03:00:27.193+01:00Since it is pretty clear you have not actually rea...Since it is pretty clear you have not actually read the book in question, but have resorted to merely restating dogmatic oppostions, you should know that it includes an extended discussion of the classic ecological analysis of tracking a flyball, and takes that as one if its fundamental premises. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9192597712746432631.post-11494471455399455732016-04-22T02:54:04.126+01:002016-04-22T02:54:04.126+01:00It seems strange that you fail to note that the en...It seems strange that you fail to note that the entirety of Surfing Uncertainty seeks to reconcile predictive processing with embodied/ecological/enactive approaches to cognition. Clark's argument is that prediction and perception are inseparable and both serve action in terms of affordances (ie, the central imperative of ecological cognition). You seem to be ignoring his argument for the sake of reinstating the very oppositions he shows to be false.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com