Last time I went over affordances-as-dispositions, and Chemero's first swing at affordances-as-relations. Affordances can't be dispositions, claims Chemero, because
- Dispositions manifest when the conditions are met; this is compulsory. But I am not currently trying to effect all the affordances in my vicinity, so they can't be dispositions. Relations are functions, and thus support malfunctions.
- Dispositions require complements - for perception-action, the complement of an affordance is an effectivity. But what exactly is this? Body scale (e.g. leg length)? Actually, it's more likely in terms of ability (per some unpublished experiments Chemero has run); people's judgements of stair climbability are a relation between the riser height and the person's ability to step that high.
- If affordances are properties that are directly perceived, then when two people perceive the same affordance their minds will overlap: the problem of two minds. Relations solve this problem by making the overall relation which the directly perceived affordance is part of unique to each observer.
This would be all well and good, except that
- Affordances and effectivities are complex dispositions, and the conditions for being realised can be a long list. In addition, I can only be one kind of effecting device at a time, so when seated I am literally not capable of complementing the climbing affordances of my stairs at that moment in time.
- Noting that 'body scale' is an imperfect proxy for an effectivity, and then claiming that this means nothing is an effectivity makes no sense. In addition, 'abilities' are equally approximate. The issue (being careful what you claim is the actual complement of the affordance) is valid but applies equally to dispositions or relations.
- The solution to the problem of two minds that Heft outlined and Chemero thinks supports his case lies in making the act of perception relational, not the thing perceived. The affordance does not, itself, need to be a relation.
So far, nothing has convinced me that affordances need to be relational. But to round the story out, I want to finish the chapter and address the final tweak Chemero adds: Affordances 2.0.
There's actually not a lot more to Affordances 2.0. Because it assumes that affordances are relations between abilities to act and features (not properties) of the environment, there is room for both affordances and abilities to evolve and change over time;
Over developmental time, an animal’s sensorimotor abilities select its niche the animal will become selectively sensitive to information relevant to the things it is able to do. Also over developmental time, the niche will strongly influence the development of the animal’s ability to perceive and act. Over the shorter time scales of behavior, the animal’s sensorimotor abilities manifest themselves in embodied action that causes changes in the layout of available affordances, and these affordances will change the way abilities are exercised in action. The key point here is that affordances and abilities are not just defined in terms of one another as in the dispositional and relational views discussed above, but causally interact in real time and are causally dependent on one another.Chemero, 2009, p. 150-151
This makes the whole thing time-extended and dynamic.
Some of the problems Chemero's identified are genuine problems to which relations are the answer (e.g. the problem of two minds; the dynamics within developmental timescales of our fit with the environment). The error I believe he's made, though, is to ignore the fact that perception-action already has a relational component that does this work - the act of perception itself. Need the potential for malfunction? How about the ready made potential for perception to fail (I look in the wrong place, attend to the wrong thing, have yet to learn to discriminate the relevant information, etc). Worried about keeping the contents of your mind private? Easy; just take advantage of the fact that your unique viewpoint on the affordance means you are in a unique relation to it. Want to allow room for affordances and your abilities to causally interact over time? Move around and gain a time-varying stream of information about the world and use this information to coordinate a control your next actions (by forming the supported task specific device).
I like that Chemero is trying to firm up the connections between ecological psychology and developmental systems biology; I think this is exactly the right place to go looking for a home. But dispositions don't prevent this, and the Turvey-Shaw-Mace focus on ecological physics was mostly, I think, a result of the laws paper being about how to project specifying information into energy arrays - a side effect of the topic at hand, nothing more. Getting dynamical and trying to get process thinking into cognitive science is also an excellent idea; but the natural home for that is in information, not what the information is about. All the tools Chemero wants already exist, and the motivation for an account which I think eventually falls flat anyway simply isn't there.
Dynamic Touch
One final note; Chemero ends by tackling Gibson's central question about affordances; not whether they exist, but whether there is information for them. To complement his discussion of visual perception from Chapter 6 (τ and entropy) he reviews some of the work on dynamic touch. This is a good section on the one hand (as he notes, dynamic touch doesn't get a lot of attention outside the ecological literature and it's a productive programme), but there are a couple of issues I wanted to note in passing.
Dynamic touch is the name given to the process that allows you to have non-visual information about objects. Pick up a book, and close your eyes; now heft the book, or move it around. You will have a very clear (and generally pretty accurate) perception of it's size, etc. The basis for this perception is the inertia tensor. All objects with mass have inertia - they resist a change in their position. This resistance can vary in three spatial dimensions, and the inertia tensor is a matrix describing this three dimensional resistance. People's haptic perception of, say, an object's size, varies as a function of this tensor. If you experimentally alter an object's inertia tensor by altering the mass distribution, people's perception follows the tensor and not the size. The tensor, in other words, is the dynamic entity that is being specified and thus perceived.
Two brief comments - first, the tensor is not information. It is a 'world' variable, because it is dynamic (it's units include mass). Information is kinematic (motion based; time, position and the temporal derivatives of position only). The tensor is, as I say, quite clearly the world variable we perceive; but the information specifying this world variable is yet to be identified. So, strictly speaking, dynamic touch is a poor example of an answer to Gibson's central question.
Second, Chemero discusses the proposed role of the inertia tensor in the size-weight illusion. The suggestion is that people are not perceiving size, or weight, but moveability, and there is evidence to support this. I just want to flag up that recent work by my colleagues Geoff Bingham and Qin Zhu suggests the size-weight illusion is actually specifically about throwability, and that when they tested the inertia tensor explanation for these data the tensor account did not work. However, this last bit is new and as yet unpublished data, so I just want to flag up that while there is a good literature on the illusion in the dynamic touch literature, the story isn't over yet.
Conclusions
This ends the psychological part of the book. I'll get to the last chapters soon, but not immediately due to work constraints. But I wanted to get to this stage, to have all the pieces available to discuss.
Broadly speaking, I don't buy Chemero's 'shored up' ecological psychology. I don't buy the motivation, I don't buy the solutions (situation semantics, relations), and I think that the law based dispositions account stands up just fine to the critique. I will concede that the issue of using non-specifying variables has me interested; to preview my thinking, I agree that an organism cannot tell the difference between a lawfully generated variable and a sufficiently robust constraint based variable. I am not yet convinced, though, that the latter can stand up to the kind of scrutiny that it will be exposed to over the course of perceptual development and learning - but I need to invest a little time in this, and to finally get round to reading that literature. I think that the laws account will still hold up well, and I hope it does because the constraint account currently lacks the critical mechanism of the symmetry principle to allow specification to work; but there's work still to be done on the latter. I think.
Broadly speaking, I don't buy Chemero's 'shored up' ecological psychology. I don't buy the motivation, I don't buy the solutions (situation semantics, relations), and I think that the law based dispositions account stands up just fine to the critique. I will concede that the issue of using non-specifying variables has me interested; to preview my thinking, I agree that an organism cannot tell the difference between a lawfully generated variable and a sufficiently robust constraint based variable. I am not yet convinced, though, that the latter can stand up to the kind of scrutiny that it will be exposed to over the course of perceptual development and learning - but I need to invest a little time in this, and to finally get round to reading that literature. I think that the laws account will still hold up well, and I hope it does because the constraint account currently lacks the critical mechanism of the symmetry principle to allow specification to work; but there's work still to be done on the latter. I think.
Comments, please! I'm enjoying the discussion and there are still question to which I'd like answers.
A few quick comments:
ReplyDelete1) I adamantly believe the relational view of affordances is a better way to go, but I also agree with you that it is not NECESSARY to do many of the things Chemero wants. Nice analysis.
2) I like your coverage of the problem of two minds in the other post. Indeed, that was a central issue for James, Holt, and Perry (Perry was another chief in the New Realism movement, and was James’s first major biographer).
3) One odd thing about Chemero calling relations “Affordance 2.0” is that they were also “Affordances 0.5” That is, I think Gibson was clearly thought of affordances as relational. He approved of what TSM were doing, but I think Cutting was right that the two lines of thinking differ significantly (do you know the 2 ecological psychologies paper? More obvious now than at the time.).
You know, I don't think I've ever read the Cutting paper. I should look.
ReplyDeleteGiven you agree with some of the critique here, why do you think relations are still the way to go?
Well,
ReplyDeleteYour analysis here does not really tout the virtues of the dispositional approach, it merely states that the relational approach is not necessary for much of what Chemero wants. I have already talked in other posts about problems I have with the dispositional approach. First, I think the notion of effectivities is highly problematic. Second, I think the notion of necessity in realizing the “disposition” is highly problematic. Third (and final for this list), I think at best the disposition formula is true by definition, and hence, at some level uninvestigatable.
Another point, which is NOT fair as a criticism, but is useful for comparison, is that in the TSM model, the metaphysical reality of affordances is uninteresting. In the TSM model, talk of affordances is just (i.e., only) a shorthand for talking about clusters of object properties. If objects exist, and have properties, then they have TSM-style affordances, QED. The fact that there is sustained metaphysical interest in the notion of affordances indicates there is something in the notion more interesting than the TSM version. The relational version emphasizes that more interesting part. In the relational view, the affordances IS the matching between object properties and organism abilities. The affordance is that I can walk through the door – not something about the door, not something about me, but something about the match between us. This, among other things, sticks us to a physical interactionism, making it clear that our primary concern is my physical abilities, and not my knowledge or predilections (which get lumped together in effectivity-talk). It also takes out any notion of necessary action; a relation is there, but there is no disposition that MUST realize.
As for the “uninvestigatable” assertion: There ARE things that one can do within the TSM paradigm, but the one thing you definitely CANNOT do is investigate whether or not an-organism-with-the-effectivity takes advantage of the-affordance. In the presence of an affordance, an organism that does not act upon it, by definition, lacks the effectivity. In the presence of an organism with the effectivitiy, if the action does not occur, by definition, the affordance is not present. Those two, true by definition, statements are the primary intended meaning of the disposition analogy / metaphor. The relational model definitely does not limit inquiry in this particular way.
Of course, something about the way I worded all this is unfair to the relational approach. I phrased it as if the relational approach was something that came after the TSM approach, when I am quite confident that Gibson was doing the relational thing years earlier than the TSM papers.
I'll come and go on these points as I have time and in no particular order; sorry, long week and I've been thinking about this in pieces :)
ReplyDeleteYour analysis here does not really tout the virtues of the dispositional approach, it merely states that the relational approach is not necessary for much of what Chemero wants.
This is true. I am currently working on the premise that the dispositional view is the orthodoxy here and Chemero's is the challenger. So I've been focused on addressing the problems in the factors motivating his account. So a more positive story is certainly due: I've done bits of one here, and here. I owe you more, though :) For now, within the context of reading Tony's book, I'm focused on using the dispositional account as a basis from which to address his concerns.
In the TSM model, talk of affordances is just (i.e., only) a shorthand for talking about clusters of object properties. If objects exist, and have properties, then they have TSM-style affordances, QED. The fact that there is sustained metaphysical interest in the notion of affordances indicates there is something in the notion more interesting than the TSM version. The relational version emphasizes that more interesting part.
Yes. I think this is in Gibson too: the central question, after all, is not 'are there affordances?' (because yes, there are), but 'is there information for them?'. As I've mentioned, information is the relational bit, and I think that indeed, that's where a lot of the action is. The problems Tony poses that requires a relational solution (e.g. the problem of two minds) gets handled in optics, not in the world.
I'm reading the Cutting paper: I think he thinks Gibson is up to relations. But I think that the 'affordances point both ways' bit fits nicely with the dispositional framework. Think of salt: the anchoring properties of it's disposition to dissolve implies quite specifically the required properties of the solvent. This type of information is what you use to make new solvents, or new glues, etc. There's a clear specification of the complement in a disposition that relations lack; lots of things can be the relata of any given relation. This needs some work, but I think there's meat to these bones.
As for the “uninvestigatable” assertion: There ARE things that one can do within the TSM paradigm, but the one thing you definitely CANNOT do is investigate whether or not an-organism-with-the-effectivity takes advantage of the-affordance. In the presence of an affordance, an organism that does not act upon it, by definition, lacks the effectivity. In the presence of an organism with the effectivitiy, if the action does not occur, by definition, the affordance is not present. Those two, true by definition, statements are the primary intended meaning of the disposition analogy / metaphor.
This strikes me as entirely unproblematic. If an organism effects an affordance, then the presence of the affordance and the capacity to effect that affordance are, indeed, trivially the case. The interesting bit has always been the information: without that, you can't clearly lay out the full nature of the effectivity. What you study, then, is not 'whether' an organism does something, but 'how'. Sure sounds like the ecological research programme to me.
Andrew mentioned something in a comment a while back that is relevant here: Mike Turvey and I have been doing some modeling of differing views of affordances, and find that the relational and dispositional views are in fact very similar. The deeper you dig here, the more similar the views get. The real difference comes when you compare Gibsonian and representationalist views of affordances. Donald Norman, Vera & Simon, Ruth Millikan, and Erol Sahin all develop views of affordances that take them to be kinds of mental representations. Affordances on these views are fast mappings of perceptions to actions, which can occur without a lot of intervening computational work. They are, that is, what Andy Clark calls action-oriented representations. When held up against this work, the differences between affordances-as-dispositions and affordances-as-relations become truly insignificant.
ReplyDelete(This is, I think, in contrast to the differences between the situation-semantic and TSM views of information. There, the differences are consequential.)
As regards what I call affordances 2.0 in the book, it really doesn’t matter whether you start from relations or dispositions. I prefer relations, so I started there. I gave some reasons in the book that I prefer to understand affordances as relations, and I have a few others. But if you don’t believe me (as Andrew doesn’t), I hope you will agree that we need a view of affordances that is genuinely dynamical. So, develop a dynamical view of affordances based on a dispositional view of affordances, and what will it look like? Well, I actually worked it out a while back and can tell you that it will look a lot like the version of affordances 2.0 based on relations. (I can’t find the graphic I made of it at the moment. I will post it if I do.)
This is the main point, as far as I’m concerned: Given what ecological psychologists do, we can’t define affordances in terms of things that are static, as relations and dispositions are. Affordances 2.0 is an attempt to get there. There could be better ways there. Lately, I’ve become more and more convinced that Bob Shaw is onto something when he talks about the need for a process ontology.
Andy, Certainly no more thorough reply is owed. It is nice to have a place to think through these things.
ReplyDeleteI was thinking about this last night, and was going to post something similar to what Chemoro just said. What I realized was 1) if you specify the "affordance" thoroughly in the dispositional view, you are really close to the relational view. 2) so my problem with the dispositional view must be A - in encourages (but in no way mandates) an incomplete specification of the affordance, B - it has that ugly effectivity thing, C - the implication of necessity. Point A was the big one.
Let's look at A with the salt and water example. When we say that salt has properties that make it dissolvable, we have not fully specified the disposition: Salt has properties that make it dissolvable IN WATER (and other suitably propertied liquids). In the same manner, when we say that the stairs are walk-up-able, we have not fully specified the affordance: The stairs are walk-up-able FOR ORGANISMS OF A CERTAIN SIZE AND SHAPE. If you always list who the affordance is for as part of the affordance, you will have most (if not all) of the essential features of the relational view. A "who it is for" is an essential part of the description of the affordance in both systems.*
So, part of my problem with the effectivity-thing is that it is ugly (it lumps together several things that I think it is virtuous to treat seperatly), but, more importantly in this context, it is redundant. If we apply the above principle in reverse, a proper specification of an effectivity would include a description of the behavior those animal properties allow. Thus, if you fully specify either one, you don't need both.
The necessity thing may be a red herring, as we could specify sufficently to make the necessity argument make sense (I just think we shouldn't).
--About the dynamic thing. I'm not sure what to think about this. Surely we miss things when we think statically, but surely much is there statically. Is it a question of where the best starting point is? Is it a question of where we are destined to end up no matter where we start?
--
*Worth noting, Holt went through great length to argue the object towards which a behavior was directed was an essential part of the description of a behavior - many interesting implications of this.
"There could be better ways there. Lately, I’ve become more and more convinced that Bob Shaw is onto something when he talks about the need for a process ontology."
ReplyDelete...Or Mark Bickhard's call for the same, which has been rather extensively elaborated.
Let's look at A with the salt and water example. When we say that salt has properties that make it dissolvable, we have not fully specified the disposition: Salt has properties that make it dissolvable IN WATER (and other suitably propertied liquids). In the same manner, when we say that the stairs are walk-up-able, we have not fully specified the affordance: The stairs are walk-up-able FOR ORGANISMS OF A CERTAIN SIZE AND SHAPE. If you always list who the affordance is for as part of the affordance, you will have most (if not all) of the essential features of the relational view. A "who it is for" is an essential part of the description of the affordance in both systems.*
ReplyDeleteAs I said above; actually, you can tell a story about the solubility of salt, even if water doesn't exist, if you have a theory about how the anchoring properties lead to solubility. This is a part of industrial chemistry: you have a material with known properties, and a theory of, say, solubility, and you can build a solute to match. I think this sounds more like Gibson's 'pointing both ways', and it certainly gibes with the affordance implying the organism and vice versa. I like how such an implication is very strong and robust for the dispositional account; relations can do it to, but it seems less...compulsory about what is required to fill the implied complement slot.
But I don't want to argue on the basis of quotes, I've come to the conclusion it's a bad idea. Here's what I think is ok about dispositions: they are properties of the world and don't become affordances until measured by an organism (via perception); or, more lately, measured by scientists. I worry about relations as simply not being the right kind of thing to lead to information, and nothing Tony's said convinces me otherwise. While the difference may end up small, I think the difference in starting assumptions (affordances as features vs. properties) matters and I much prefer the property story. I'm going to try and find time to work up a summary post to try and convey this.
But if you don’t believe me (as Andrew doesn’t), I hope you will agree that we need a view of affordances that is genuinely dynamical.
ReplyDeleteI think this is fine; but I still think that the place to do this is in information. What ebbs and flows and changes over time is us, and therefore our perception of the properties of the world. I must blog in detail about task specific devices, because I think that's where the action is.
Frazier,
ReplyDeleteI've read some of Bickhard's stuff and like where he is coming from. There is some question (in my mind) of whether it does every we want, but it definitely does the "process" thing. I, personally, suspect that a satisfactory answer will do a strong tie back to W. James, and contextualize Eco-psych within a wider context of psychology. Of course, the biggest difficulty is that to do that psychology needs a coherent identity.... ah, problems.
Eric